Fair Debt

Hosted ByLex Patterson

Unlocking Possibilities...

Episode 24 The Boxer, the Misogi and the case for the recharge

What you’ll learn about in this episode:

Downtime replenishes the brain’s stores of attention and motivation, encourages productivity and creativity, and is essential to both achieve our highest levels of performance and simply form stable memories in everyday life.  Yet, as leaders we often have the misperception of taking time away from work as negative.  In this episode we’re going to explore the benefits of taking a periodic pause to recharge.

Key Takeaways

The importance of culture both in the organization and in the recipe for a recharge retreat

The benefits of a retreat

How to plan one, and ideas to maximize effectiveness

The benefits of  health, mental health and mindset.

Guest: Don Worthington PRMI

The mission for our team is ….. create such an amazing experience for our customers they’d interrupt a stranger to recommend us. I believe the customer experience is they key to a lasting business model.

I find fulfilment in creating wealth for those that work with me, as we solve problems created by an archaic and confused Real Estate and Mortgage world. As a result I work with some amazing people who I love dearly.

I’m a wiz at all things Solar / Renewable energy, Real Estate, and Mortgage. Where those circles intersect is where I thrive.

My mission is to change the way people buy homes. There’s a smarter way to do it than most realize. We can reduce the cost of homeownership, turn any home into a smart efficient home, and add cleaner renewable energy.

I’m a Business Made Simple Certified Coach.

I love what I do.

More important than work, I’m a husband to my beautiful wife and a dad to our 4 daughters. We have a lot of fun and always enjoy an adventure together. When it is time to relax you’ll find my family and I outside, enjoying, Fly Fishing, Mountain Biking, Skiing, and golf.


Website: https://www.prmihome.com

   LinkedIn Personal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-worthington-12992a5/

Email: dworthington@primeres.com

    Company LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/primary-residential-mortgage/

Additional Resources:

Big Rocks Stephen Covey


Unknown Speaker 0:11
kindred force media

Lex Patterson 0:25
according to author Daniel Pink, most of us go through our days in a peak, a trough and a recovery. For knowledge workers and leaders, how do we improve our focus and insight work, broaden our perspective, and improve our performance.

In this episode, we’re exploring the power of the periodic recharge, with a longtime friend and cohort in an annual recharge that we’ve been practicing for about two decades. Don Worthington of prmi settle in for some new and interesting ideas and perspective. Here we go. So we’re doing something that we haven’t done before on this podcast, and that is to do an actual live remote recording most of these a bit over zoom. And so this one, we’re going to try and do it live and in person. So we’re both live miked here and yeah, so we’re gonna try this but

Don Worthington 1:18
So we’re both sitting in a couple of camp chairs. Little wind in the background, right?

Lex Patterson 1:24
and little traffic from the here now. But we’re in we’re literally on the banks of the Henry’s Fork River, which is a favorite spot of mine, how about you Don?

Don Worthington 1:37
lot of memories here, right. So definitely one of those special places.

Lex Patterson 1:42
And we’re looking to just talk about the importance and the impact of recharging. But before we get there, I thought it’d be great for our audience to just maybe tell us a little bit about you Don, what you do kind of what your journey how you got there, all that kind of stuff.

Don Worthington 1:58
So the quick and dirty has, so Father four daughters. Oldest is 21. Youngest is 13. Professionally, and ran a franchise exit a couple franchises have a mortgage company primary residential mortgage, I’ve been in the real estate and mortgage space for 20 plus years started on the front originating loans have worked on the secondary sides buying and selling loans into the secondary market. But for the last caught 13 to 15 years, I’ve run a retail group and have ended anytime, anywhere from from 30 to 35 employees is what I wrote. So that’s, that’s what I call my day job. I work with some amazing people love the space that I’m in and the challenges that provides but that’s a little bit of a background

Lex Patterson 2:46
for me. So two locations, one in Salt Lake one in one

Don Worthington 2:50
in Salt Lake, one in Layton just starting another franchise for another franchise starting another business venture, a rental business. So we’re kind of getting that up real quick. Oh, you know, it’s something my 18 year old was deciding between college or you know what to do. And so I said, Look, we’ll spend the money on on a business together, we’ll start, you know, we’ll pay for college, and she kind of elected the Business Route. So we’re in the infancy of kind of getting that set up. So we are renting Vanderhalls is like think of it as like a kind of a Polaris slingshot, but a little bit more of a classic car vibe to it. And so anyways, kind of getting started on teaching her those things and what goes into it and how to run a business and what to do. And so, again, still in its infancy, but here by later on this summer, I think it’ll be up and running and generating some some respectable revenue.

Lex Patterson 3:49
That’s exciting and teaching some lessons. Some lessons along the way for both of you probably,

Don Worthington 3:54
for sure. Always Learning,

Lex Patterson 3:55
that’s for sure. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the mortgage business. We were talking yesterday, you and I about what you refer to as the seven layer dip of the current mortgage situation. And I think, because the podcast is fair debt, and we talked about, you know, basically finance, consumer finance and debt, but the even the finance side of this, what are you seeing happening with what’s going on? I mean, we’ve come through this time, that was a boom right? And now we’ve got some shifting environment here. I just think it’d be interesting for the listeners to get your take from the mortgage side of things is what’s happening what you’re seeing what’s happening.

Don Worthington 4:36
Great question. So when I say seven layer bean dip of fun, you know, usually use some other adjectives. It’s it’s a lot of cause and effect. And a lot of times, there’s not one simple answers. There’s multiple answers and multiple things that are affecting a business or affecting an industry or affecting a different thing. And so, if we kind of come back and take a step 22 20 and 2021 were the two largest years in real estate and mortgage in the last 20 plus years. And part of that went into, you know, the Fed purchasing mortgage backed securities. And when the Fed started purchasing to stimulate the economy, when they started purchasing mortgage backed securities, it created demand. And what that did is it created demand, mortgage backed security bonds got a better price, the better the price, the lower the interest rate. And so when you were looking back at 2018 2019, rates were in the, you know, kind of fives to mid fours. And then all of a sudden, they dropped to a three and a half percent and eventually get all the way down to almost a two, two and a half percent. What that did is it created buying power, more people could afford that house. And so from a simple supply and demand aspect of it, the more demand there is, the more it increases the value of that asset. So by lowering interest rates, it increased affordability, it increased the number of people that could afford that house. And that increased demand, which led to really, in my opinion, unhealthy appreciation. Value skyrocketed. And because there were so many people who could afford that house now 2020 2021, now we start quantitative easing, now all of a sudden, they start to reduce their balance sheet. And now all of a sudden, they’re not buying as many of those mortgage backed securities. And as fast as its went up, its error went down, it’s come back up. And so now that person who qualified for two and a half percent rate a year ago now is at five and a half percent rate. So what you’ve essentially done is you’ve shrunk the buying pool, you’ve shrunk the number of people who can afford that house. So as a result, fewer buyers, right. Is is kind of a slow down. But the analogy I use, it’s like, you know, if you travel a lot, we you know, when we travel up here, you’re cruising through some of these major towns and you know, speed limit might be, you know, 70 miles an hour, and you know, you go in at 90 miles an hour sometimes. And then all of a sudden, you have to slow down to go through a small town. And you maybe only slowed down 10 or 15 miles, but it feels so much slower than it is. And so I would think if we’re talking about real estate, the analogy I use is we’ve been going 100 miles an hour, we just slow down to 75 miles an hour. And it feels really slow. But the reality is, is the speed limit is 65. Not getting too deep in the weeds. But an average balance between a buyers market and a seller’s market is 45 days on the market. It’s a six month supply of homes in Utah, Nevada, Idaho, you know, we’re still under 10 days on the market for listing 15 days. So we’ve got a two month supply of homes on the market. So we’re still is still a good market, but just coming off insane levels is what’s created a lot of uncertainty. You know, you have all this inflationary concerns. You know, when when a lot of that discretionary income is used to paying gas used to buying groceries used by those different things. A lot of those newer first time homebuyers are just, you know, the analogy I use is the boats kind of rocking, they’re kind of getting their feet setting on. Okay, what does my life look like? It’s a lot different than what it looked like six months ago. That’s a lot different than a look like a year ago. So what does my life look like? How much discretionary income do we have? Should we buy should we rent? And so I think, you know, in a long answer to a short question is, it’s been crazy. It’s slowing down, but it’s still very, very healthy. When you take a 10 to 15 year look at it.

Lex Patterson 8:44
Yes. So which leads us into the question that I wanted to ask you to was buyer confidence. So So you mentioned going through the small town feels slow, maybe feels a lot slower? I guess if I’m reading you right, then buyer confidence, but you’re looking at hard numbers, right. And, and you were mentioning to me that those hard numbers really show a different story maybe? Do I have that right? Or?

Don Worthington 9:07
Yeah, so when we look at it, let’s route it down to its core. And we can kind of dive into what angle you want to look at it from a lens perspective. But if we look at the average age of a first time homebuyer is, is what’s called technically it’s 33. But let’s just call it 30. Right? So if we look at from a demographic standpoint, how many people turn 30 years old, every year, and if you when you go to the census, and you look at the census data, more people turn 30 So more people have a need, there’s more household creations, every single year, on the opposite end of that, which again, increases demand, right? So every year the pool gets bigger of people that need it and the people who inside of that pool, alright, let’s you know give us some round numbers, let’s say household so. So two people household income, let’s say is $100,000 There’s still a really large pool. Now. A year ago, six months ago, when rates were two and a half percent, maybe your household income only needed to be 65,000 or 75,000, to be able to purchase a home, that pool, that level, that affordability is increasing. And so it’s still a really big pool, but the pool has shrunk with the cost, housing cost, living cost, all those costs increasing and doing those things. So when we look at early indicators, we look at, you know, we have household formations on one side, the people turning of home buying age on, you know, on that same side, on the demand side of it, the leading indicators that we start looking at, we look at how long homes sit on the market, we look at application rates, we look at open house showings, we look at housing sup building starts, is another early indicator that we look at now we see all of those early indicators are slowing. But they’re going back to 2018 and 2019 levels. But coming when you compare them to 2018 2019 levels, that they’re increasing five to 6% increase, when you compare them to 2020 2021. Numbers, it’s down 10%. It’s down 8%. So a lot of it is just what lens, a close up lens, a farther away lens, what lens you want to look at it to determine how things are going.

Lex Patterson 11:29
Yeah, which is interesting to me, because housing is one of the main things if you look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and whatnot, you know, it’s one of the main needs that we have. And on the consumer debt side of things. It’s one of the probably the highest debt that we carry. Right. Correct. So it’s just interesting to try and understand those trends and that debt cycle, if you will, and, and really, I think it does have an impact on you know, what, what’s in the buyers wallet? Correct? Or the consumers wallet, so to speak to so well. And

Don Worthington 12:01
if we look at the early indicators, if you look at credit card spending is up considerably over the last six months, yeah, savings rates are down considerably over the last over the over the last six months. So, you know, our economy is one of cycles. And I think it’s just easy to see the cycle that we’re on in the cycle that we’re headed into. And what does that mean, you know, and what does that mean for everyone in their businesses into some it’s, you know, there’s, there’s ways and opportunities in each cycle. It’s just understanding what cycle you’re in and being prepared for that.

Lex Patterson 12:32
Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that with us, Don, that’s a lot of good insight. You know, just it’s a little off the topic I want to be on. But it explains a lot about what you do. And I appreciate the expertise that you shared with listener their sponsor. Let’s talk for a minute before we leave the whole business thing though, about culture. So if I say the word culture, how important is it in your business? And what you do? And what do you do in your company to build, maintain and enhance your culture?

Don Worthington 13:01
Culture is a great word that means a lot of things to a lot of different people. It’s like, right now we’re sitting here, if I said, Hey, think of a tree, right? Everybody close your eyes and think of a tree. Some of you might think Apple Tree, some of you might think, you know, no, whatever pine tree, some might think of an aspen tree, where we happen to be sitting underneath two pine trees in the shade here, as we’re having this conversation. But we think we’re all talking about the same thing. But if somebody’s thinking of a big oak tree, and I’m talking about a pine tree, we’re saying the same words, but we’re saying something completely different. So if we start to unpack that on, you know, of what is culture? And from what context and what angle and what lens do you want to view through, I think it’s helpful to kind of get everyone on the same page. And so yeah, in general, there’s, there’s, I think, a couple different ways to look at it. One of them is, to me culture is this, how does a group of people act when there are no rules? That, you know, if there’s not a rule, if there’s not a guideline here, I think that that kind of describes culture. It’s that how do we behave type of a thing? So that’s one aspect of culture. I think another culture comes back to like, purpose and vision. And you’re probably wondering, what the heck does that have to do with culture. But when people are all rowing for the same cause or same purpose or they’re headed in the same direction, what have starts to happen is those unspoken words of who needs to do what just happened. So for example, customer experience is really, really critical for us. We believe, you know, you own your house, but you date your mortgage people most people have will have four to five mortgages over the course of your years of the lifetime. So for us, you know, the expense of getting a customer in and, and and building that familiarity. building that trust is so expensive and so time consuming. But if we do it right, then we have future customers down the road. So, so for us, if we talk about culture, it’s about, hey, this is what really, really matters to us. So when somebody says, Man, should I send an email? Or should I pick up the phone call? Well, they know for us Customer Experience matters, right? One of the missions in our office is to create an experience that our customers would interrupt a stranger to recommend us, right? That’s, I tell the story of you’re at dinner, you’re sitting there on the next table over you overhear them talking about mortgages, and they’re having a negative experience? Did we create an experience where they would go interrupt those people to tell them, hey, you need to use us? Right? Right, by telling you in a story. People can get that now what that does is and what my goal and hope for that is, is what are they doing? Nobody’s around? Yeah. How do I handle this customer? How do we handle each other? Culture is another thing, that it’s not a member of, it’s not an email, it’s not once it is something that has to be you have to bang that drum, again, and again, and again, we look, I specifically look for ways to celebrate the culture that I value. I look for ways you know, whether it’s we do some fun things with meetings, we do some fun things with awards, and celebrating just that behavior that we want, the more we celebrate the behavior that we want. That’s how that gets passed down, or passed around. tribal land is that tribal knowledge. And it’s something that has to be nurtured. And it can grow when it can die, and a bad person or the wrong person. You know, you mistakenly don’t interview for it. Or if somebody gets through your interview process, and they don’t espouse your culture, man, it can take a long time to kind of rebuild that. So that to me, you know, and kind of talk more about it, I guess. But that’s, that’s kind of when I say culture, that’s kind of the tree that I’m talking about is, is that behavior? What do we believe in? How do we act when nobody’s around? What if I don’t know what to do? What if there’s not a policy in place? Yeah. What do I do?

Lex Patterson 17:14
Yeah, I agree. I think it’s, it’s great culture. There’s so many pieces to this. And we’ve talked on the podcast, to various people on the culture subject, you know, so just a question I like to hear input on. And the other thing too, Don, is we’ve we’ve known each other for, Geez, what’s it been close to probably 30 years, maybe I bet. We’ve been doing this, this this getaway that we’re doing this retreat, whatever you want to call it. We’ve been doing this for probably, I mean, it’s evolved, I would say over maybe 20 years, we first took this trip, I’ll never forget sitting on the tailgate of my, my Ford, my 98 Ford, or might have even been the Isuzu Trooper back then I don’t even know on a local river, talking about the mecca of fly fishing up here. And we’ve we’ve loved that for many, many years, when then you finally said, let’s just do it, let’s make it happen. And so that trip was Scott, my son kind of forged the groundwork, I think, but it evolved because we really didn’t start out doing what we do now. And that’s kind of what I want to jump into here is, is a little bit about that. And because because for me, it’s a recharging piece, you know, it’s it’s a periodic pause. We do it around packs yesterday was this summer solstice, longest day of the year. And that’s kind of a time when we can just pause, put it on pause, really reflect kind of, for me, it’s a time to get away just step out of the normal things that we normally do and just get into a lot of questions that maybe I don’t normally ask because I’m on the treadmill of life is maybe a way to put it. I don’t know, it’s great way to put it. And, you know, I think culture runs into that to the culture that we’ve created the trust that we have with each other that because we have the we spent a lot of time on the water either in the drift boat, which is a hobby that we enjoy, but it’s something that I think allows us to immerse herself in. Let’s talk for a minute about recharging and having that kind of as of a ritual, if you will. What are your thoughts on this whole thing? What do you get from it? What do you value what I mean? Let’s just have a discussion around this.

Don Worthington 19:32
So there’s a couple things but where I had a real aha moment is I was listening to a gentleman speak I don’t I can’t remember who it was. But he says all right, you’re gonna go to a boxing match. It’s gonna go 10 rounds. And you know, you have to wager whatever this is called $100. You have to wager $100 on who’s gonna win. Now one of these boxers is going to stop at the end of every 60 seconds or we’ll say it’s a two minute round. One boxer is going to stop And it’s gonna sit down, and he’s gonna get a drink, you know, take a 32nd break, maybe get a little ice, okay? And then the other but the other boxer is in those breaks, while the other one is sitting down, taking a break, getting a drink, maybe getting some coaching advice, right? The other boxers gonna get sit in the ring, and continue to do push ups and burpees and sit ups, you know, which boxer it’s gotta go 10 rounds, it’s going 10 rounds, which boxer Are you betting on? And I was like, for me, it was kind of a ha moment, because at a time I again, I young mentioned, I’m a father, I had young, you know, young kids at the time, and I felt a tinge of guilt as I was going out and going to go do this and, and have a, you know, spend some time without the kids. But understanding who I was before who I was after, when he would get this for me, you know, when we come out here I’m sleeping in a different bed worse, we’re sleeping in our trailer, right? It’s different surroundings, it is the routine. It’s amazing how much our bodies our lives, how we, our brain literally wants to put us into cruise control as much as possible. It’s part of the way our brain is designed so that it can save energy for more critical tasks and more critical thinking. So when your brain is always trying to go on cruise control, it’s really easy to have it turn into Groundhog Day. But when you come out here, one there is everything’s different sleeping food views. And so it puts you in a physically in a different state, emotionally and mentally. And then when you have when you have somebody that you can trust and somebody that you can be free with and somebody that you can. And I would highly recommend somebody that’s like not in your business, but around your business. So that when you’re having discussions, they have things like over these years, you’ve asked me some very basic questions where I’m like, Damn, I’m an idiot. Why did I not think of it like that? And you weren’t. And it was just coming at it from a, from a fresh perspective, fresh set of eyes?

Lex Patterson 22:11
Well, from a very outside perspective, perspective, because even though we’re friends and we’ve known each other and and maybe that’s a good part to it, too, is that trust, but you know, so that you can be you can say things that a lot of times we might just blurt things out, oh, yeah, you wouldn’t say to someone else necessarily might hold that in. Or it might even be a thought that you’re not going to share with just anybody but it comes out and then the perspective from the outside view of there’s very little context on some of it. But or maybe not, that’s not a right way to say at least different content, different

Don Worthington 22:44
context. So it’s common for owners and CEOs, and business owners to feel impostor syndrome. And so that’s something common that a lot of us deal with. And so sometimes, when you can get around somebody and be like, okay, you know, I mean, it’s game time, when you’re in the office, when you’re working with employees, when you’re working with customers, you know, you have to be calculated, but when you can be free, and you can be transparent without feeling judged, right. And when you’ve asked me some pointed questions, it’s never Oh, hey, I was feeling judged your second guests, but it was like out of genuine concern. So if you can find someone who is in a similar or different space, that you can bounce your ideas about a man that, you know, the value there is incredible, I think it’s an old Tony Robbins, quote, something about, you know, it’s about better questions, right? You want better answers, ask better questions. And sometimes, you know, we have these ideas rattle around in our brains, and when we try to get them out from our brains to our mouth, you know, there’s a lot of thinking that has to get done there. So like, when you’ve asked me questions, well, what about this? Or how does that work? Or explain this relationship with the office? Or what’s the purpose behind that? It’s allowed me to formulate better and more concrete ideas, walk things through from an outside perspective, hey, this was my intent behind this activity, this event, this initiative, but how would you interpret that, you know, not knowing anything about that? And that honest and sincere feedback is something that is just you know, to me, this week gets blocked off my calendar every year it’s the first thing that I do. We’ve done it enough. The wife the family, they don’t even question it anymore. I come back, you know, from we can get down the I don’t know the hippie route of of, I think being a nurturer nature, not nurture but being in nature,

Lex Patterson 24:39
and nurture, nurture.

Don Worthington 24:42
The from, for me, personally, I mean, some people like being outside some people don’t. But when I could put my feet in the water when I could sit on the bank. I mean, last night, the stars were just so bright and so bright. And, you know, in this, what we enjoy in this fly fishing world, you know, there’s a lot of distractions that we have. But, man, there are times where you really have to be present. And time just warps. Because we’re focused, there is a limited time, you know, if a fish is rising or trying to get this insect or this, this fly that imitates an insect in front of them. And man, all your faculties are there. But then an hour later, you’re just sitting there looking at the rocks,

Lex Patterson 25:35
which and that’s the other thing is this is evolved. You mentioned, we do it for a week. Now, when we didn’t say we didn’t start out that way. But let’s talk about that for a minute, too. Because as this has evolved, what do you think like, is the week the perfect time? Do you wish it was to do wish it was three days? Do you

Don Worthington 25:53
see I think, I think a week is perfect. There’s, you know, and usually we cut it short, we usually give ourselves a day or two on the back end of it to kind of get everything put away. Yeah. And so I think a week is great, because it just disrupts everything. It, you know, you really are forced to cause a pause and time now. Kind of getting back to the work thing. If I can’t step out of my office for a week. I’m not running my business. Right. Yeah. Well, and so to me, when I come back, how did that go? Was? If it was, yeah, we barely noticed you are gone. Okay, good. I mean, as a business owner, I’m doing something. Right. Right. So I think from a timeframe that the routine disruption, I think, but the Thursday or Friday, we usually get in the flow, and the vibe of up here. And that more relaxed pace. And, you know, we’ve had usually a comeback, my phone notes are usually chock full with, okay, you know, I’m actually really excited to get back. Because maybe I’ve thought through a couple other things or couple things I want to institute or do those things. And so I’m actually really excited to get back in and kind of get after it. Yeah, I kind of missed that.

Lex Patterson 27:11
Well, let’s talk to about when we’re talking about timing. So length of time, weeks good, because it sort of pauses it and disrupts it. So you can use that to measure some things. I love all that. What about to like this is what’s fascinating to me is, so we’ll get up here. Sometimes, we come up in different cars, I pull the boat, you pull the trailer, you know, whatever. And we’ll pull in camp chairs come out, we’ll sit down. Things just sort of flow right out of us right there. Okay, so this is what’s bothering us. These are problems that are going whatever, and then we go oh, wait, it’s it’s time to put on the waiters, let’s go fish. We go fish. But in my opinion, what happens is those those thoughts have been put in the brain. And now we go and we focus totally, and we’re totally present, as you mentioned, it’s it’s it’s, it’s not a distraction. It’s just that you’re shifting gears into something that you normally don’t do it your way off of your normal routine. You’re doing something you’re passionate about whatever that is, whether it’s fishing or some some other thing, but could be golf for anything that people have a passion for, and are able to pour their self into fully for that week, right? Yep. But then we also do it. The thing that I think is fascinating is so then there are these moments in between all this, whether it’s at dinner, whether it’s sitting on the bank, if it’s a slow, we’re waiting for a hatch, where that’s where some of these probing questions come out and be like, you know, I’ve been thinking about that. And what about this?

Don Worthington 28:39
You know, we joke about, let’s go solve the world’s Yeah. And as we take as that comes up, whether it’s a recent news headline, whether it’s an experience that we had, you know, Lex, one of the great things you do is you’re very inquisitive. And you ask very poignant questions. And, you know, we try to figure things out, you know, whether it’s we’re trying to figure out where we should fish or what bug we should use, what should we say, you know, what should we go do but, but inevitably, those conversations turn to deeper? Yes. And at home, if I had 15 extra minutes, right, you’re either exhausted, yeah, mentally or emotionally exhausted. And you’re trying to find a little bit of respite there, but, but if not, it’s like, okay, well, then I’m gonna go whatever, I may have to clean something up in the garage, I need to go make some home repair, I need to go. There’s always 12,000 Nagging things that are like, Oh, I really need to get to this. But up here, when you’re away from those different things, you really start to get to ask some kind of deeper questions. And I’m smart enough to know I don’t have the answers. The more I learn, the more I realize, I don’t know, much you know. And so to be able to kind of deep dive into some of those life questions, whether it’s personal, whether it’s work, whether it’s family, some of the advice or guidance you have given me of like, Oh, I’ve experienced this. And here’s what I wish I would have known or wish somebody would have told me. And, I mean, it’s, it’s had a major effect on my life, personally and professionally. So I think it’s that just change different scenery. We can’t just, it’s amazing how bad we all want to fall back into our comfort zone is where I think there’s so much fulfillment in this week.

Lex Patterson 30:24
Yeah, then right back, you’re done. I mean, I, they’re just I get so much value out of just the outside perspective, you and I, you know, we have we each have our strengths. And it’s, it’s kind of funny, I think there’s a yin and the yang to some of that, you know, and we play our short and, and so having a recharge and having that time, I think if we boil it down for the audience, I think it’s, it’s blocking the Time Out you, you actually have to fight for it, you have to fight for it. Choose the Stephen Covey object lesson that he had where he had the big rocks. And then he said, You know, I put the big rocks in the jar and then okay, as the jar full, well, then he pulls out the sand or the pebbles and sand and then the water eventually. Because if you don’t put those big rocks in, and this is definitely a big rock for me, is having this pause. Yep, then other things in your life are going to fill in and take over.

Don Worthington 31:20
So here’s a question for you. Yeah, something happens, I fall down on break a leg and we can’t make this trip. Yeah. Would you still take a week to recharge? Oh, wow.

Lex Patterson 31:29
You know, that’s, I mean, I would in some way, shape or form? I definitely would. But Don, I don’t think it would be the same. Like,

Don Worthington 31:37
I don’t think you’d be the same. My question is for the listeners out there. What if they don’t have a friend? What if they don’t have somebody that they can relate to? Would you recommend for them, even if it was by themselves, I would they take four to five days, even if it’s alone, and go to someplace to do something that they like I

Lex Patterson 31:54
would, but I would, I would, I would tag onto the end of that, yes, take a week for yourself, do something you like but structure it in a way if at all possible, to get that area that you can give and provide feedback because to me, the the recharge part of it is only half the equation to me great to me, it’s having that piece that you can go, Okay, I’m gonna get something off my chest. And maybe even a stranger could play a part in that I don’t know, you know, an instructor or something. Or even someone that you’ve developed a relationship, you know, if it’s someone that you go to some business, you know, whether it’s a hotel or a spa, or you know, something, and you and you meet up and you go, hey, I want to pick your brain on something, you know, sometimes just having that outside perspective, that other viewpoint causes me to think about that in a different way than I would have if I would have just got out in nature and thought about it on my own. And the other thing about this too, when we do this exercise, I feel like I ruminate less. Like, I don’t know if it’s just the the change in scenery and the outdoor air and the fact that you run my butt into the ground all the time. With how hard we go up here, but I mean, I sleep. I’m not sleeping on a comfortable pot here. My bed is much more comfortable. But I feel like when I get up here, I sleep better. I don’t ruminate the way that I do. And I think it’s because I’ve allowed my mind to release some of those things that normally I just hang on to and spin about. Let’s just

Don Worthington 33:27
back up. Yeah, kind of catch up to this. So advice would be even if you don’t have a friendship, go yes. And when you go schedule, downtime, and busy time, inside of that, let’s call it, you decide to start with a three or four day trip, right? So I’m the type of person who, you know, normally at home, if there’s 15 minutes, I want to try to schedule something in that I’m always trying to do more and more and more. And so sometimes it’s awkward, it took, you know, a little bit of getting used to like, okay, hey, we’re literally not going to do anything for the next two hours. And just to see where that goes, right and so, so take time, make sure you’re doing some things that you like, in a place that you enjoy. But then also schedule some nothing time in there. If you can invite friends, if you don’t have friends, I would tell you I do another trip usually in the spring was some golfing friends, a different set of friends, different industry. And they they get together and that’s a really fun trip. So even if it’s just people that you can find that have enjoy your same hobby, I definitely wouldn’t bite that to do that. And then two is, I guess the last part to that would be I think this just comes with time and consistency. And trust is to your point is finding those people that you can be transparent with and be honest. I think as an owner, it’s critical. You know, if you talk about the I don’t want to say mental ill the stresses and the emotional anxieties. You know, as an owner, your job is Give vision, make decisions, give feedback. And it’s hard to do sometimes. And sometimes we need outlets because that pressure, you’re the only one that knows everything that you do. And there’s a stress and a pressure that comes on to that. Taking time. If not, you know, it can run you into the ground. Yeah.

Lex Patterson 35:20
Yeah. Yeah. So, so great. I mean, I think you summed it up so well, right there. One thing too, that I think just to recap on is the different industry idea. Right. I like that. Because you mentioned that and I think that’s really kind of key is to get outside of if you really want to get outside of perspective, right? It shouldn’t be somebody that you’re in the same trade association with all the time. It’s, I mean, yeah, I shouldn’t say it shouldn’t be that that could give you some perspective. But But I think the diversity, the more diverse that is, potentially the better.

Don Worthington 35:53
Yeah. The other thing, I’d bring up the Lex and we do this a little bit, and we used to do it a little bit more different. There’s an old Japanese legend, I think it is about miso geese, right? And the Muskogee is a spacecraft a story of about somebody who goes on a journey fights this, I don’t want to say demon, but fights this adversary, right? And then comes out on the other side of it, and is a completely different person, and you’re like, what does that have to do with the recharge, don’t be afraid to do something challenging or do something different on this vague on these recharge. So a lot of times you and I will pick a brand new section of river, you know, we’ll we’ll do something different that we’ve never done to kind of mix it up a little bit. And sometimes we go into it going out, there is a 5050 chance this is even going to work, right? We’re even going to see a fish and we you know this, you know, we floated the Teton River. We’ve been up to the Madison we’d go to the park. Right, right. We’ve stayed up late throwing mouse patterns. Literally, I think last night, we got off the river at what 1030 At night, I mean, floated out in the dark might have been 11. Yeah, you know, we’re coming out coyotes are yipping in the background. And so doing something physically different, I think is also

Lex Patterson 37:17
an outside of your comfort and outside of your comfort, trying to push yourself actually, sometimes outside of that, yeah, there are times when

Don Worthington 37:23
you can go like, Oh, we’re gonna go to the routine. We know it works. Let’s just go back and enjoy. Yeah. And there are other days, it’s like, okay, this could be epic, or this could be a massive failure. And we’re gonna have a good laugh. Either way, we do a little bit of that. I think there’s some recharging, and a little bit of those types of

Lex Patterson 37:38
activities. And you build that done into so many. I mean, other aspects of your life. You mentioned, your four beautiful daughters. And I’ve always looked up to you as as a great father. You do epic shit with your kids. I mean, and it is that adventure spirit. I mean, and maybe I don’t know, just just one, one quick story that stands out or to have some of the things that you’ve done with your girls just, you know, because it is it’s it’s epic, you know,

Don Worthington 38:09
oh, some of the things that we’ve done. Yeah. Let’s see. We took a backpacking in the Utah desert. Got caught in a flash flood. That’s probably when they would tell you about we’ve rafted we went to the Canada US border. And then rafted in for four days into Montana. And that was that was amazing, fun trip. I enjoy the outdoors. I also enjoy hunting and my two oldest daughters have taken you know, a great elk that we’ve enjoyed the meat. So lots of they’ll golf they all mountain bike they fly fish

Lex Patterson 38:51
together as in the story of Bailey getting that first elk that Bailey’s the oldest and so you know you with the four girls, and at that particular time, Presley was

Don Worthington 39:06
cheese she probably had to have been eight years old seven, seven or

Lex Patterson 39:10
eight. And Bailey was How Old

Don Worthington 39:13
Bailey would have been 1615 Okay, so

Lex Patterson 39:16
you had all together with you backpack quite a ways in if I ever hiked,

Don Worthington 39:22
we’d hiked back in it was a day trip we’d elk in September. Joe Rogan explains it as he’s like imagine these 700 pound beasts with trees growing out of their head screaming at you. I mean, it’s one of those things if you experience it, it’ll, it just it’s amazing. So my Bailey a drawn out for a special tag. And so they all want it to experience it and my goal in that is you know, with kids and raising a dad and I appreciate the compliments a lot. Probably the most best compliment I get is about being a father but on that it It is about creating experiences and memories and things like that. And so when we were figuring this out, we had gone one weekend, we kind of had a pretty good idea. But, but yeah, all all of us had hiked into this, my brother had come along with us. And, you know, these elk were screaming, and we had to position wind and a whole bunch of other things. So, anyways, we, we get ourselves in position, and it all comes together, and she takes this amazing animal. And it’s super, you know, I use the word spiritual, when people get to see the whole circle of life, and they forget where the food on our plates come from. And for them to see, you know, for us to live, other animals pass along, and I think it’s important lessons. And so there was the, the physical strain of it, the emotional side of it, which is okay, and as an as a part of that, and experiencing that, and then hiking out and processing the animal and packing it out. And we got a little turned around in the, you know, the night and had a little bit of scared, you know, they got a little bit scared. It’s those types of experiences, that I want my kids to be able to look back and go, Hey, I can do hard things like life, you know, we, life is hard. Everybody will have to do hard things. And the only way to be able to do hard things is to know you can do hard things. So how do I find balance in teaching my kids hard things, and letting them experience hard things? Without them hating my guts. And I feel like the outdoors. I feel like the outdoors is an amazing teacher of life, and balance and cycles. And, you know, there’s just so much that we can learn and so I’ve tried really hard whenever possible to get them to come along. Yeah.

Lex Patterson 41:51
Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that. That’s, you know, yeah, it was that was a fun, fun, yeah. left an impression on me even even though it wasn’t there. Just seeing some of the video and listening to the story so that I appreciate you sharing it with it. I know. It’s personal, you know, so yeah, no fun. So let’s, let’s wrap up on this. Maybe what are two truths that you have learned in your life two truths. So you live by two truths. That is just give the listeners two truths from Don.

Don Worthington 42:25
All right, let’s take it right on that. So there’s absolute truth. Absolute Truth is, it is true no matter what, no matter when the scenario, a friend of ours, Brad, he likes to say, look, you can believe two plus two equals seven. If you want, it’s your choice. You can believe that. But if you try to build a spaceship that’s gonna land on the moon, that spaceship is gonna blow up. Right? So absolute truth to me is something that is true. Things that are absolute truths, to me are things like gravity, things like being kind, being honest, integrity. To me, those are just absolute truths, right? And then the other. So there’s absolute truths. And then the other one that you hear me say quite a bit is Truth is an illusion built on perspective. I say that quite frequently. And the reason I say that to myself frequently, is there is more often than not, what is right or what is wrong is so relative to the person. And easy analogy would be, you know, tapioca pudding, or rice pudding? Who likes rice pudding? Right? But somebody out there loves rice pudding. Oh, yeah, their truth is, rice pudding is the best, right? My Truth is, I don’t know how the heck you eat that. Right. And so, you know, I use that as a humorous example. But what is good to one person is horrible to another. What is easy for one person is incredibly difficult for another. And when you start to realize that, you know, there are some things that are more I don’t want to say flexible but, but that their truth is theirs. And they could believe that with all their heart, but it’s not yours. And it doesn’t make that person right or wrong, right? It’s just as different, right? We all have natural skill sets. So So whether you’re talking about something that somebody values, what somebody believes, it’s okay, it’s just when you’re building a business, and you’re talking about those different things, whether it’s from the employee employer perspective, whether it’s from the customer perspective, understanding not your truth, but their truth and what matters to them has saved me a lot of money made me a lot of money helped me navigate this different thing and and really more so. I think it’s reduced stress and anxiety because I don’t care who’s right or who’s wrong, it doesn’t matter. It’s, you know, how do they find fulfilment? How do I find fulfillment? What’s right for them if I can solve their problem? I mean business at its most basic level is understanding a problem, right? Seeing a problem, and providing a solution for that problem that you can, whether it’s a product or a service that you can charge a fee for that its most basic level. And so, like when you start to understand their truth, that could be their problem, real or perceived, then it gives you an opportunity to see potential solutions to problems that your business or you personally can handle if I try to wrap that all together both make it a personal thing as

Lex Patterson 45:36
well. So great. Yeah, well, I appreciate you taking time on this retreat, you know, to spend time on something that I mean, I’m, I’m actually stretching out of this because I usually have industry people. So here we are getting some perspective outside of the industry, which I think is so important to quote, you know, to kind of quote or refer back to Donald Miller. I mean, he was talking about who would be the six people that carry your casket, you know, and you’re definitely one of my six, My River Brother.

Don Worthington 46:07
for sure, it’s I I actually enjoy that. And that’s one of the things I tried to look at dailies, they were those six, so thank you, it means the world to me.

Lex Patterson 46:35
Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today. Visit the show notes on the episode page at Kindred force.com. If you’d like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts on Spotify, on Amazon music or on Google podcasts. Sharing the show, or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates and the inside scoop, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on any page of our website at Kindred force.com. I appreciate the love and support. I don’t take your attention for granted. Thank you again for listening. See you next time.

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